In this episode, Carmen Alonso talks with cohost John MacAdams about her experiences facilitating PMI's Path of Freedom program.
Connecting incarcerated folks with the outside community through each group taking PMI’s Path of Freedom course and writing to each other
Working in supermax and maximum security environments
Cultivating humility and patience as qualities necessary for effective service
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Carmen Alonso is a licensed clinical psychologist with over 20 years of experience. She is dedicated to serving adults in both individual psychotherapy and group settings. Carmen has taught mindfulness-based interventions to alleviate stress and decrease suffering to a wide variety of groups such as:
Patients with clinical depression and anxiety
Veterans with and without PTSD
Spanish-speaking populations
Medical residents
School personnel
Athletes
Police officers
Residents in maximum and medium security facilities (including men in the segregation unit in the most secure correctional facility in Wisconsin)
Some of the mindfulness-based interventions Carmen has offered throughout the years are Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction, Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy, Path of Freedom, and Mindfulness-Based Resilience Training. She has also combined her mindfulness teachings with Tae Kwon Do, a martial art she has practiced for over 30 years, including nearly 25 years as the head instructor of the Choi Tae Kwon Do School at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
Facilitating the Path of Freedom Program with Carmen Alonso Transcript
John MacAdams:
Welcome to another session on the Prison Mindfulness Summit. My name is John MacAdams, and I'll be your co-host for this session. I'm very happy to be here today with Carmen Alonso. Welcome, Carmen.
Carmen Alonso:
Thank you. I'm happy to meet you.
John MacAdams:
Thank you so much for being part of our summit. I'm looking forward to speaking with you. I'm going to read from your bio to familiarize our audience with your work, and then we'll get into the conversation. How does that sound?
Carmen Alonso:
Sounds great.
John MacAdams:
Okay. Carmen is the founder of Just Mindfulness, a nonprofit organization based in Madison, Wisconsin, working at the intersection of mindfulness and social justice. She is a licensed clinical psychologist with over 20 years of experience and is dedicated to serving adults in both individual psychotherapy and group settings.
Carmen has taught mindfulness-based interventions to alleviate stress and decrease suffering to a wide variety of groups, such as patients with clinical depression and anxiety, veterans, Spanish-speaking populations, medical residents, school personnel, athletes, police officers, residents in maximum-and minimum-security facilities, including in the segregation unit in the most secure Correctional Facility in Wisconsin.
Some of the mindfulness-based interventions Carmen has offered throughout the years are Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction, Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy, the Path of Freedom, and Mindfulness-Based Resilience Training. She has also continued her mindfulness teachings with Taekwondo and martial arts. She has practiced for over 30 years, including nearly 25 years as the head instructor of the Choi Tae Kwon Do School at the University of Wisconsin Madison. Welcome again, Carmen.
Carmen Alonso:
Thank you.
John MacAdams:
Our summit is oriented towards prison and work in prisons and working with folks who are incarcerated, working with folks who are in reentry. And so I think I'd like to begin and focus a little bit on the work that you have done with individuals who are incarcerated. I'm wondering what drew you when you first sort of entered that world. What drew you to that work?
Carmen Alonso:
Yeah. Yeah, sure. For several years, I have been teaching mindfulness-based interventions. Some of the ones that you mentioned at the University of Wisconsin mindfulness program. It got to a point where it felt like I was really drawn to working with people who may be living more on edge, who may not be able to afford the $500 class, the MBSR class. At that moment, I started pursuing it. Okay, what else is possible? It was around that time that Fleet Maull came to the retreat in Madison, and I was really immediately captivated by the work that he had been doing.
I explored the possibility of going into prisons and volunteering. It turns out that it was the organization here in Madison that would be PMI, Prison Mindfulness Initiative, where some people who were already seasoned practitioners were already going into prisons and offering twice a month on mindfulness groups, so I connected with them. The moment I stepped into the prison for the first time in my life, I felt, "Wow, this is where I needed to be." It really felt like home in a sense.
John MacAdams:
You're clearly an experienced mindfulness practitioner and experienced facilitator and trainer, and you stepped into a prison. How did this affect your personal mindfulness practice?
Carmen Alonso:
Well, it took my practice to a whole different level. It served to deepen the practice. It was humbling to see so much wisdom inside the prisons. Every time I left, I felt humbled, inspired, and grateful to them while I started to teach less and listen more, and the more I was here, I was like, "Wow." I discovered very soon that I actually have many teachers here in prison.
So, it was a process of being used to teaching in a more, whether it's a university environment or community environment going to prison. It's a whole different way. Lots of unpredictable changes happen as we go in. But when we sit down in a circle with men or women for a while and go to the women's prison too, it's just something that happens. And that was such a heartfelt sharing.
I would say there was more honesty, more honesty of what was really going on inside. That's piled on humility now and just the honesty, that courage to name what was really going on for people. So yeah, it really changed me in ways that still I'm not aware of after many years, but still, the effect I think of doing something inside, not just deeply in my practice, but on a deeply personal level.
John MacAdams:
In your bio, it states that you have worked in medium security and maximum security and in segregation, often known as the hole or solitary. Can you give us just kind of a thumbnail sketch? What would that work look like? If you're going to go in and do a session or however it is that you're providing your service? Can you give us a little sketch of what that might look like in those three different environments?
Carmen Alonso:
Yes, sure. Let's say a typical day when we go into prison. In the morning, we do the GP, the general population group, and the mindfulness group, where we sit around probably 10-12 men and three of us volunteers. The format for that group is very similar to other mindfulness groups in that sense. We always start with practice. Then we will check-in. People can play in our class if they want to, but pretty much everybody checks in.
And then, we discuss a theme, a theme that may be relevant to all of us. I like to bring many things from the Past of Freedom curriculum because I do find it very helpful for everybody and for all of us. And then we have a conversation around that theme, whether it's difficult emotions, cycle, reactivity, communication, drama, or whatever it may be. And then, we close with a short practice at the end. So that's the GP group in the morning, then we'll get lunch and come back.
I do the segregation group, and the segregation was very interesting because I learned quickly that for that group, I found it more helpful to be more focused to definitely bring a program that we can go because it's so hard to be in set to be on yourself for so many hours alone that we don't have a container. People tend to talk a lot. So, now I found, and I've changed that, and I'll come to that in a minute.
So, I will do the Path of Freedom, and people will be able to stay more focused on the practice and really relate in a way to the same format and the group in the morning, but we will do the segregation, but just with more focus. Okay, the lesson for today is we're going to talk about change and what it is that we want to change, and then we will do practices and explorations during that group.
Now, that group, as I said, is very helpful to the 10-11 or 10 sessions for the Path of Freedom curriculum. Right now, I have been with the same group for a few years. We are changing things a little bit in the sense that, like, I will send myself to like each lesson and do some more, and people take turns preparing what it is that they want to discuss. Even guiding practices will change. We need to be careful because we cannot be in prison but giving them the opportunity to bring practice and they want to discuss the theme that they want to discuss.
It has been so wonderful because they feel, "Okay, I'm going to prepare. We are excited. We are looking forward to the next group." And then they really come beautifully prepared to share something close to their heart about something that has been meaningful to them, particular practice, and it has the mindfulness component in one way or another.
And then whatever it is that they want to discuss and how they have been working with whatever it is. It could be any activity, any of the themes that I mentioned before, and beyond. So, that's the segregation group. In that group, I can only have six men. They allow shackles to a stool. There is usually no room. It is a really small group in that sense. That's the maximum, but it is so wonderful. It's a wonderful experience.
And usually, after the seg group, I go into one on ones for people who may want a little bit more individualized support, one language practice. So that's my typical day in prison. Now, if I teach Path of Freedom to the general population, then obviously, it's going there and then teaching the curriculum. That would be the situation.
John MacAdams:
Would you like to give just, again, a real brief overview of what you think are the most sort of vital and impactful aspects of the Path of Freedom? You've been doing Path of Freedom for a while, and you've been doing it recently. So, what is that reason?
Carmen Alonso:
Path of Freedom resonates with the curriculum, and it feels so alive. I keep learning so much, for example, the communication chapter. They learn quickly too. I remember this person was from a segregation group, who told me how I was present in the ways and the patterns around speech or listening, that he was not resonating with them. Because in his culture, that's different. That doesn't feel disrespectful, the interruption. We're talking about interrupting. And then, he went on to tell me that, you know, in the Black culture, he was respectful. And then he told me that what you share with the group, the reasons it would feel disrespectful.
At that time, I actually realized this. Here I am. At that point, the group was all Black men. I am a White lady with an accent from Spain, and talking about communication in a way that, to me, makes a lot of sense. But that openness to other cultures, other ways of communicating, it was I remember clearly that time was years ago, but so meaningful. So that's the thing that I keep learning. The curriculum feels so alive and leads to so many great conversations.
John MacAdams:
Great. I think that's really beautiful because one of the things you're describing there is cultural humility, right? It's us being willing to be open and listen and ask questions and admit or just acknowledge where we're from. Our culture and our history, and that it is not necessarily the same as those we were serving, and that whatever their upbringing, the cultural situation is absolutely completely as relevant and valid as any others. And that we can, we can learn that.
And so, this brings me then to the next question, and that is for those of us in the audience who are interested, maybe we haven't spent any time serving people in prison or in an incarcerated situation or people who are at risk or people who are in reentry, or we've only spent a short time, what can you offer with your amount of experience? What are some of the key qualities that we want to cultivate and bring forward as we start to step into serving in these roles and serving in these environments?
The whole picture is because we have the administrative side, we have the safety side, and we have the folks who are incarcerated. The whole package. What do you think are really helpful qualities? And maybe what are some of the pitfalls that we might avoid?
Carmen Alonso:
Well, I would say right away humility and patience. Humility because I realize time after time, you know, it's easy for me to go there to talk about mental prisons, even in addition to physical prisons, to talk about identities, and then I will leave. I really have no idea what it is like to be there 23 hours out of 24 in the cell. I ask them often. "I don't know how you do it. I don't know how you do it. Tell me. How do you make it?" Because when we are in the groups, you may see guards, and you're in awe because they are going to have an extraction which is the term they use to get somebody out of the cell. That's going on right here.
I'm saying this because I have a group session here. And then, there's a window. I'm talking about being present for this, which they have asked many times about being present for health. Why would I want to be present? Which is a great conversation now, in a way. So, that humility, that not knowing what tomorrow would be like to be living in those conditions. I think that is clear. I will speak for myself because we're going with a little bit of arrogance, you know, we're going in to teach mindfulness. Let go of that.
The second quality that I think it's important for us to cultivate, which is not my forte, to begin with, is patience. We go there, and things change all the time. You may have a great plan for the group that day, and it works, there is no group that we drove an hour and a half to go back to, and things change. The people who you thought were going to be in the group now have to move on somewhere else. So really, that open mind that we talk about in this practice, open mind, open heart, for sure, cultivating that.
And that curiosity, really. Curiosity, which I know I'm talking about some of the qualities of mindfulness itself, but they are needed. We need to embody those as much as we can. We are human, too, by really embodying those. Yes, so those three are really important. Humility, patience, curiosity.
John MacAdams:
I think that's super helpful. Would you be willing to share as you started to go in, any missteps, mishaps, or screw-ups? That might be helpful. That might be helpful for us to know.
Carmen Alonso:
Absolutely. I mean, as I was referring to before, my assumptions. That, "Oh, this is the way respectful communication looks like, and this is the way it feels rude." No, for some people, that is not the case. So, my assumptions with the layer of arrogance, yes, thinking that I'm going there to teach. That changed quickly, in a way.
That cultural humility that you named, John. I think it's very important too. And for me, at times, that has felt like a stretch. I grew up in Spain. I came here when I was 25. So even English is not my first language, as you can tell. And sometimes the accent, you know, I don't understand some of the words. But instead of feeling frustrated with myself, like I was at the beginning. Like, I was so frustrated because I couldn't understand what the man was saying. I just ask. They are open to educating me about everything, really, so far.
So, that openness to just ask. That's the thing that I love about working with people who are in a physical prison, the honesty and the cutting through the BS in a way that is very refreshing. It's very refreshing. In a way that may feel some more of that down towards honesty, they will then feel like teaching in a university setting, for example. So, it's been a passion. Yeah. And they will give us a clear idea if we are open to listening to it.
John MacAdams:
I think that's great. That's helpful. Now, I'm going to ask you to parallel that with your experience with the administrative side, the safety star, and the folks in uniform. What have you learned in terms of ways that are effective and impactful that do not create more chaos, confusion, or aggression?
Carmen Alonso:
Yeah. What I learned at the beginning I went in, and I felt sent to resonate with people who are in prison. I always talk sometimes about the guards even though we need to put some limits around that. So, I found such an alignment with time. So, we were, "Wait a minute. Let me be open." And having conversations with the guards as they escort us to the lobby back and forth and seeing the level of exhaustion, the level of sleep deprivation, the inability to eat healthy diets, to see some of their bodies hurting.
And to really see, in a way, the suffering on that basis. I've been much more open to also hearing from them and asking, "Hey, how's your leg going?" And sometimes they would say they are on their 10- or 16-hour shifts. Sixteen hours. How can you function for 16 hours straight? Well, you do what you have to do. And the resilience of many of the guards.
I have been very interested, like many of us. John, I know you have too. In supporting prisoners and administrative folks in prison. It has been hard because there's always a shortage of staff. And then to invite them to come to a group, the whole process seems so complicated that it doesn't seem to be effective, or at least we haven't heard any responsive way to support the guards in the way that they deserve and that they need.
Some of them are interested. Some of them they're not so sure about this, but I think we have now been able to really enter into a way that is resonating. We have done it. I've been part of two sessions in prisons. I can see why we need to do it deeper. We cannot just go there with short-term practice. It needs to be in a different way. So, we need to find a way. We need to. I think it's imperative that we work to support the whole community inside the prison as much as we can. And many of the comments, plenty of psychology, the PSU stuff, they are very supportive, but how can we do it?
John MacAdams:
Yeah, I think one of the threads that I'm hearing is that these folks are human too. They are human beings who are doing really tough work, and they're being asked to do, like you say, so often, and what we found across the country, and really across North America, is staff shortages. There are staff shortages, so people are working overtime, forced overtime, and sometimes having to make really difficult split-second decisions when they're exhausted, right?
In the work that I have done, I've just found just a little kindness offering and a little thank you when somebody escorts a group into the room. There's an opportunity just to say thanks and acknowledge that, yeah, they're doing their job. It could be quite a disruption from the regular movement of the folks who are in custody. All of a sudden, they got to take them down to some other room so somebody could do the program. And yeah, that could be. Anyways, this is certainly an opportunity to just acknowledge people's humanity.
Carmen Alonso:
Absolutely.
John MacAdams:
That's my honest thank you.
Carmen Alonso:
Yes, totally. And even just ask them as we go to the back to the segregation, you know, "How is your day going?" They will tell.
John MacAdams:
Yeah, genuine interest and curiosity.
Carmen Alonso:
Exactly, yeah.
John MacAdams:
Well, I'm going to switch gears a little bit and ask you to talk about the Tandem program that you ran. And if you can describe what that was and how it all came together in the sort of fruition aspect that you seem to be quite excited about.
Carmen Alonso:
Yeah. So, yes. Yes, I love teaching the Tandem Program, and what that is, is going in tandem with teaching Path of Freedom to two groups at the same time. It's really one group, but half of the group is in a physical prison. Half of the group is in the community. That tandem class has been on about four times here in Madison.
Unfortunately, people could not have direct contact with each other. But the beauty is I was teaching both groups with two other volunteers, and we will go to prison for one day. On Mondays, we'll go to the prison, and the community group is on Wednesdays. We would really bring the same themes, obviously, because everybody got the same Path of Freedom workbook, and we will go through the curriculum together. That is really that feeling. It will start with session one, you know. We all need to train our minds.
Session Two, who are we really unpacking those identities? We're going to change. When do we want to change? And on and on with the curriculum. There was one session, and that timing was session ten forgiveness. The practice was so beautiful because I invited people to go into practice and reflect on what it is. What is it that you may have done to whatever degree they were comfortable? So, I said to be a little bit more prepared for the practice. But the question was, what is it that you have done in your life that is hard to forgive yourself for?
And then we contemplated in that mind, and then I asked to go a little bit underneath and to see what it is that you feel that drove you to do whatever it was. I gave them little index cards. And then they could name on the top what it is that is hard to forgive. Below, what was it that drove you to do what you did? And that is both for the community and the prison group. What was fascinating is that those under me were the same. It's the same thing, some of the same processes, whether it's fear, whether it's selfishness, whether it's greediness, whether it's pressure from one person or another.
So, let me just read you a couple of examples here. This gentleman said what was difficult for him to forgive was the brutality and violence of my crimes, the pain that caused the families of the people that I killed, and my family as well. One made me do these things. Either fear or peer pressure. And then we go into a community. It's hard to forgive myself for the harm I caused others. Emotional harm, spiritual harm, taking the easy path, and giving up on my dreams. What was behind those ads? Fear, doubt of my own worthiness, lack of self-confidence, pure societal pressure.
You can see the spreads pretty much in all these cards. They want to be able to. We must put the man in prison and 20 in the community. So, you can see many similar threads. I think that exploring and unpacking forgiveness, in no way with that, understanding that, wow, look at this, because what I will do is after we have done the process, and in each group, in a way, I will go and read as another practice the notes or some of the notes to the other group. And then they could see that oh, oh, wow, look at some of this.
So, there was an idea of, at some point, as you can see, they're colorful notes to maybe do some art around this, around humanity. All the mistakes that we all make are the reasons that lead us. Yes, some may have consequences much greater than others, but there are so many commonalities in that sense. The mistakes and what drives us to do more with them. It was really moving to have that experience. So, that was forgiveness.
And then at the end, when we presented the certificates for the last, very last class, I did something with a note also, with my love. It was like bringing love notes from half of the group to the other. I really love that. And this is, for example, one of the communities. I'll just read one for each.
He said, "We are brothers. As our class ends, I will continue holding you in my thoughts and in my heart. One thing this class has shown me is how often I doubt my own worth. I will keep committing to experiencing my own basic goodness. Yet, I have no doubts about your infinite worth and your basic goodness. I know where you are now placing huge obstacles in recognizing work. From my heart, I wish you a path to freedom inside you. May you know without a doubt that you are worthy, valued, cared for, and basically cared for." This was a member of the community.
Now, a member of the prison. It says, "I would like to thank you all for your genuine concern for myself and fellow inmates. In recent times, to me, at least, it seems like once you are placed here, society gives up on us. When you are surrounded by those who think you are nothing but unworthy of concern, your light loses its shine. So, for all of you who have stuck on this group and learned as we have, it makes me see that not only are they stuck in this world, many lives."
I have many lockdowns from them. A deep appreciation from both groups. Then COVID hit, and we had to end that. I'm doing it online. But the vision, what I'm hoping to do is that we can start again, and come together, come together in the last class, the community where people decide to celebrate certificates, and just that, yeah, that celebration of going through the process together has been so inspiring for all of us involved.
John MacAdams:
Well, that would be pretty amazing. That would be quite an amazing feat of administrative shuffle. Yeah, the administrative two-step to get that to happen. But yeah, stranger things have happened. That's a graduation ceremony. Straight family comes in. So, that's a great aspiration, Carmen. It's a good aspiration. You mentioned, obviously, the pandemic hits and your program, as so many programs came to a grinding halt. How did you carry on, and what's happening now? Are you starting to go back inside?
Carmen Alonso:
Yes, now we are back inside. And actually, during the pandemic, what was really lovely was that we had done Path of Freedom Class 1, both community and inside the prison. And then, while I was teaching Class 1, I saw the chaplain coming in. He told me that they had to shut down. But what was awesome, actually, from that came a great opportunity.
I invited two friends who have been in prison themselves. One for 20 years, one for ten years. And we read the recordings with these two men and another woman volunteer, and that was so rich, and that the four of us on the screen, who would send the sessions every week. I learned so much from kind of co-facilitating with people who have had the lived experience of being incarcerated. So, that was a golden thread that came from the pandemic.
For the other people, for the other groups that I wasn't doing Path of Freedom. The volunteers and two other volunteers and I kept recording, kind of like similar things we did in person with practice, discussing a theme and short practice at the end. Obviously, the conversation was just among the volunteers. We kept sending DVDs every week. We learned once we got back, when we went back in person, that they were really taking those in, and we're very appreciative of finding that continuation of the mindfulness practice support during the pandemic.
John MacAdams:
Do you now have basically full access the way you had before?
Carmen Alonso:
Yes, now we do. Yeah. Well, I want to resume what the general mindfulness groups are doing. I want to resume with the Path of Freedom and again orchestrate another tandem group. It can be orchestrated, which it's quite a process, as you all may imagine.
John MacAdams:
Now, are you going in and organizing this through just mindfulness through your organization, your nonprofit?
Carmen Alonso:
Just Mindfulness supports some of these offerings. We're doing the recordings with two men who had lived experiences. Just Mindfulness was able to compensate these folks for their time, which was really wonderful.
John MacAdams:
Great. Well, I think we're coming close to our completion, but I wanted to ask you if you'd be willing to provide us with some guided practice and if you could guide us in a way that you would be inside. Suppose that is particularly different from when you talk about the community work that to do and work for incarcerated people. So, if you could take three or five minutes of practice that you think might be of benefit and relevant to our conversation.
Carmen Alonso:
Sure. Okay, well, let's do it. Okay. So, the invitation here is, as you listen to this, close your eyes. See if that feels comfortable. If not, keep them open. I'm just taking a few moments here to be really. Just be. Maybe let's start with the physical body and being aware of this body as we are sitting now or standing or whatever position we may find ourselves in. Noticing the points of contact with the ground. Noticing the support underneath the body. Move your back straight but not tight. Make the shoulders relaxed. Sometimes it helps to roll the shoulders up and then back. The head is balanced. The arms may be by the sides.
A few moments to just check in with this physical body that we have. What are you noticing as we bring attention to the body? Maybe the contact. Maybe we feel the flow of the body. Maybe the hands. And next, stay in our minds right now. Maybe the minds show smart ideas after listening to this talk. Desire to build relationships. I certainly have some of those possibilities. State of our mind.
With the next exhale, now let's take a moment to acknowledge the emotional body. What to say? How am I feeling now? What would you say? Remembering that emotions usually come. It hurts. There are several going on at the same time. If it's not so much, what can their current emotional approach be? The beautiful thing about this mindfulness practice is there's nothing to explain. There's nothing to judge whether what's going on in this body and this mind is fogged. That's the way it is right now. At this moment, you may already be different from your physical body.
Once we now recognize what's going on in the body, the mind, and the heart, the emotional environment can come to find the most points that go with each breath. And if the breath doesn't feel like a good thing for you, do something else. It's not a big deal to the hands and the knees or feet on the ground. But the breath is all minds. Notice the movements that go with the inhale. The movements that go with the exhale. Notice the abdomen and the chest. Notice the big cage expanding and deflating.
Whatever it is that you feel, breathe more intentionally in your vibe and just receive the attention there in a few moments. From there, go back to full circle and feel the body as a whole, as we've seen here connecting. Take a moment and also dedicate these few moments of practice for the benefit of all beings inside the prison and outside. We all live in one prison or another. All of us, to some extent, want to be free. As we go along in our work, we bring that to others too.
So, just a couple of more breaths, full body breaths. And the deeper inhale and longer exhale in one moment together. Deep inhale. Pause right there. And then, long exhale. And as you are ready, you can open your eyes. I just want to thank you all for tuning in and joining us for this wonderful opportunity to connect with you and with other people who are very interested in these types of offerings.
John MacAdams:
Thank you so much, Carmen. That was great for me. I really appreciate that practice. So, as we prepare to close our time together, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but you mentioned that one of the things that you really were and have continued to be struck by is the wisdom that you found as you found inside. So, can you just drop one little gem of wisdom that you have discovered inside?
Carmen Alonso:
Well, oh my goodness, so many. You know, something that comes up, by the way, as I remember this gentleman one time was saying, and he was an older man. Again, so wise. He would just tell the young folks in the group, "You know, you just be you. You just do you." And the way he talked about that invited me to just do me.
There are many layers to that, as you may imagine, but just the invitation to just be more authentic and genuine in a way. I'm not doing justice to the way he said it because he was saying it very beautifully, but that invitation just means following the heart. Follow my heart, and things will be okay. It's all about somebody's invitation to just be you. Remember, these wonderful beings. That's one of the many, John.
John MacAdams:
It's great. It's great. Okay, well, thank you again, Carmen. Now, if folks want to learn more about your work and more about Just Mindfulness, your organization, how can they do that?
Carmen Alonso:
Yes, you can go to the website, JustMindfulness.net. There, you can see a little bit more about the work of Path of Freedom and the collaborations with other entities and other groups locally and across the country. And there are also some practices there in case you want to continue to practice. There are so many of these things on the internet, but you have some in English and some in Spanish. So, just check it out. They're connected.
John MacAdams:
Okay. Well, thank you so much again for taking the time to be with us today. I really appreciate it. I want you to be well and take good care, Carmen. Thank you.
Carmen Alonso:
Thank you, John.
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